From chess to Jeopardy to e-sports, AI is an increasing form of beating individuals at their occupy games. But that was once never the final purpose. On this first episode of season three of In Machines We Believe, we dig into the symbiotic relationship between games and AI. We meet the gargantuan gamers within the house, and we purchase a outing to an arcade.

On this episode we meet:

  • Julian Togelius, Affiliate Professor, Division of Computer Science and Engineering, Fresh York College
  • Will Douglas-Heaven, Senior Editor for AI, MIT Expertise Overview
  • David Silver, Main Analysis Scientist at DeepMind, Professor at College College London.
  • David Fahri, Lead Researcher, Delivery AI

To invent this episode, we also spoke to Natasha Regan, Actuary at RPC Tyche, Chess WIM and co-creator of “Game Changer”.

Sounds from:

Credit ranking:

This episode was once reported by Jennifer Real and Will Douglas Heaven and produced by Anthony Inexperienced, Emma Cillekens and Karen Hao. We’re edited by Niall Firth, Michael Reilly and Mat Honan. Our mix engineer is Garret Lang. Sound come by and song by Jacob Gorski.

Corpulent transcript:

[TR ID] 

[SOT: Jeopardy announces Watson Challenge]

Trebeck: On the contemporary time we’re announcing a Jeopardy competition unlike something we possess ever presented sooner than.

Jennifer: Ten years within the past, the tv quiz expose Jeopardy unveiled a brand unique participant…

Trebeck: It be an exhibition match featuring two of the top possible jeopardy gamers in history… their challenger? Smartly, his title is Watson. 

Documentary Announcer: [music] Watson is an IBM computer designed to play Jeopardy. Watson understands pure language with all its ambiguity and complexity.” 

Jennifer: And perchance now not surprisingly… provided that playing Jeopardy is the object it was once designed to raze… Watson was once factual. Basically factual.

[SOT: Montage of Watson Jeopardy answers.]

Trebek: “Watson.”

Watson: “What’s istanbul.”

Trebek: “You’re licensed.”

Trebek: “Watson.”

Watson: “What’s parlement.” 

Trebek: “Correct.”

Trebek: “Watson.”

Watson: “What’s feeble greek.”

Trebek: “Watson, support to you.”

Jennifer: After three nights of this, Watson won… beating the 2 top possible gamers within the game expose’s history… From chess to Jeopardy to e-sports… AI is thrashing individuals at their occupy games… (so as to discuss)… however that was once never the final purpose. Researchers are attempting to invent luminous programs that are more precious and trendy reason than something we possess.

David Silver: If the human mind can remedy every form of diverse projects, can we invent capabilities that could perhaps raze the identical thing? 

Jennifer: I’m Jennifer Real and this episode we dig into the symbiotic relationship between games and AI. Because for so prolonged as there’s been AI research, games had been a ingredient of it. We meet the gargantuan gamers within the house… and we purchase a outing to an arcade. 

{Game sounds}

Karen Hao: In a arrangement, games possess over-hyped AI capabilities a exiguous bit, on legend of..

Jennifer: That’s my colleague Karen Hao… 

Karen Hao: Loads of of us now factor in that AI is mighty more capable than it in fact is, however games are literally a demonstration of extremely slender intelligence. And we’re now form of trapped in this cycle the put AI research is particularly happening this direction of an increasing form of stepped forward games without in fact going to an increasing form of stepped forward, complex loyal-world scenarios, environments…which is what we basically need.

{Game sounds}

[SHOW ID] 

OC:…you’ve got reached your vacation residing.

Julian Togelius: Games had been a ingredient of AI since AI started, or fancy on legend of the very concept of AI started.

Jennifer: Julian Togelius is a professor and computer scientist residing in Fresh York City… 

Julian Togelius: I work on AI for making games greater and likewise games for making AI greater. 

Jennifer: He’s giving me a history lesson on this relationship between games and AI… and by hook or by crook, he manages to raze it while also playing just a few video games that he’s been working with.

Julian Togelius: I particularly work with the video games and form of as a lot as date video games on legend of basically chess and Dash and all that… I imply, we’re form of done with that. It be fancy, I imply, [laughter] to now not discourage of us that fancy playing chess and fancy playing Dash or poker for the mental peril. That is supreme. But , there are so mighty of more probabilities, so many more attention-grabbing challenges within the varied games.

Jennifer: How did you come by into this area?

Julian Togelius: Yeah. So when my mother gave my cats away, [laughter] It be factual! I imply, she, she obtained allergic and so what are you going to raze? So she gave me a computer sooner than a Commodore 64, and I started playing all these games and I obtained basically hooked in to these exiguous, exiguous worlds. And then I grew up… smartly, more or less. [laughter] Uh, I grew up, I performed excessive college. I started learning philosophy and psychology. I was once in, how does the strategies work? What’s the relationship of consciousness and intelligence and the arrangement does it all approach about? 

Jennifer: These questions introduced him to an early paper by the pioneering computer scientist Alan Turing… He was once the principle to exclaim that constructing a computer was once even mathematically that that you can perhaps be additionally factor in.

Julian Togelius: That paper is basically about games. It be about the Imitation Game, what’s now called a Turing Take a look at, the put you are attempting to inform whether or now not somebody you’re speaking to for sure – it wasn’t called chatting within the fifties – whether or now not somebody you’re talking by strategy of textual negate material to is a computer or a human. It be also about chess. Because chess turned into very early on a core focal point of man made intelligence research.  

Jennifer: We judge of of us that play chess as having a honest stage of intelligence … and so the game turned into a arrangement to gauge how luminous machines are too. 

And… fun truth? The very first chess playing program was once written sooner than a computer even existed to speed it. Turing performed it in 1950…the spend of an algorithm worked out on paper.

(It didn’t work very smartly.)

But of us persisted to approach this research for decades.  

And then, in 1997, I-B-M’s Deep Blue computer beat Garry Kasparov… the reigning world champion of chess. 

[SOT] – Deep Blue beating Garry Kasparov in Game Six by strategy of youtube

Commentator 2: Are we lacking something on the chessboard now that Kasparov sees? He doesn’t investigate cross-test.. he looks to be like disgusted for sure.  

Commentator 1: Whoah! 

Commentator 2: Deep Blue! Kasparov, after the transfer C4, has resigned!

[Applause]

Julian Togelius: And this was once an mountainous mental tournament of us had been pondering, k, what now? Did we licensed remedy man made intelligence? And it looks that evidently no, you didn’t on legend of this chess playing program couldn’t even play checkers without well-known reprogramming. It couldn’t play Dash. It couldn’t play many of issues. And mighty more, it couldn’t tie its shoelaces. It couldn’t cook macaroni. It couldn’t write a worship poem. It couldn’t exit and prefer a newspaper. It couldn’t raze any of those objects that individuals raze the entire time. It basically could perhaps perhaps literally licensed raze one thing. It could perchance perhaps play chess. It was once rattling factual at it, however it completely could perhaps perhaps basically only play chess. 

Jennifer: So, individuals had solved what was once believed to be the top possible peril of making intelligence… however ought to you appeared below the hood of this method… he says It was once for sure licensed a form of search.

Julian Togelius: What if I purchase this transfer? And then, what if my adversary takes this transfer, then what if I purchase this transfer? So we would constructed a tree of probabilities and counter probabilities and calculated from that. It was once in fact mighty more complicated than that, however that is the heart of what it was once doing. And of us appeared at it fancy, this doesn’t seem fancy something fancy how our brains work. I imply, we don’t basically know the arrangement our brains work, however, um, whatever they’re doing, it’s now not this. [laugh]

Jennifer: But it’s now not JUST inclined to play games towards individuals… AI presentations up in games in every form of how.  Especially to invent them more attention-grabbing and involving.

As an instance…. AI changes parts of video games…  so as that they are diverse whenever we play them, and that is the reason been the case on legend of the 19-80s.

Julian Togelius: And this concept of, fancy, repeatedly creating something unique… and while you play the game it’s unique… has survived into loads of diverse games. As an instance, the Diablo sequence of games is in accordance to that, or the Civilization sequence of approach games. At any time while you play it you’ve got a in point of fact unique world and that is the reason core to the game. It licensed wouldn’t be the identical within the occasion you didn’t raze that. 

Jennifer: Yet every other reason to raze this is on legend of of storage… and he says a game called Elite turned into a the biggest milestone… when it was once made available for non-public computers, along side the Commodore 64. 

Julian Togelius: It couldn’t perchance fit in memory in this computer. So one model had 4,096 diverse superstar programs. Now, within the occasion you just had 64,000 bytes of memory and factor in, judge of how exiguous that is, that is a millionth of a computer you too can prefer at the contemporary time. So, they had to recreate the superstar draw while you obtained there. Most frequently invent it up from scratch.

Jennifer:   And that’s aloof the case now. Definite, we possess mighty more storage. But games are also mighty, mighty bigger and more complex. 

Julian Togelius: The game of No Man’s Sky, which got here out 2016, however they retain updating it – it keeps getting an increasing form of impressive. It has more planets in it than you can ever check with in a lifetime, however it completely by hook or by crook all fits in your computer on legend of they’re recreated while you see them. 

Jennifer: In the intervening time, researchers possess also persisted to invent game playing AIs… and Togelius says, one of many next challenges in that house would perchance be for them to play many games straight away… on legend of multitasking is something individuals raze smartly…however that’s now not yet the case for these programs.

So, how raze we come by from these highly structured environments with many of predictability… to something nearer to loyal existence, which is messy and chaotic and in no arrangement predictable.

To him and diverse researchers…? We play more games.

Julian Togelius: If we had a tool that could perchance perchance reliably play, fancy with some proficiency, the raze hundred games on a computer game high checklist, fancy Steam or the AppStore or something, then we would possess something an identical to fashionable intelligence. 

Jennifer: So, in many ways… we’re aloof form of the put we had been a half of century within the past… pondering shall we licensed come by the predominant to fashionable intelligence with AI programs that could perhaps beat individuals at their occupy game. 

[beat / music]

But we also mix games and AI in every form of diverse ways…prefer to abet us with coaching recordsdata.

A few years within the past I met a crew at Princeton searching to invent dwell signs more recognizable to self-using vehicles… the spend of the game, Mountainous Theft Auto. 

Extraordinary as that could perchance perchance sound… it’s in fact gorgeous purposeful ought to you specialise in licensed what number of diverse ways a driver could perhaps perhaps stumble upon a dwell stamp within the loyal world… be it on a stick within the ground… hanging within the air… or painted on the pavement… and we stumble upon them in every form of gentle and climate… assuredly partly hidden by tree branches… or the darkness of night. 

Researchers could perhaps perhaps scamper shopping for examples of all these dwell signs… or video games can licensed generate unending examples.

We’re also the spend of games to greater realize how algorithms invent selections. 

[Start to bring in sounds from Arcade. *Frogger theme music and gameplay begins, toggle moves*] 

Jennifer: We’re at a conventional arcade in Boston… on legend of it has loads of of those older video games that are inclined to prepare A-I programs. 

Will Douglas-Heaven: Hi, I’m Will Douglas-Heaven. I’m senior editor for AI at Expertise Overview… And I will be capable to’t play Frogger. 

Will Douglas-Heaven: Frogger got here up moderately these days in some diverse AI research the put they had been searching to come by an AI to point out itself and point out fancy what it was once doing. Um, and they taught… they knowledgeable an AI to play this game and Frogger… Chances are you’ll additionally hear from the noise, I preserve failing.

So Frogger is this game the put you’re a exiguous frog down the bottom and likewise you’ve got got obtained to defective a avenue that has vehicles transferring form of in some unspecified time in the future of the show conceal left and licensed , and likewise you’ve got got obtained to form of dodge between them. And then you definately come by to a river and likewise you soar on the support of turtles and logs to come by to the varied aspect without falling in fancy I did there. Um, anyway, so it’s, it’s far a game which has obtained fancy many of sure actions you purchase at every step. And so after they knowledgeable the AI to raze it, whenever it took an movement, they obtained it to point out in, um, form of, , human comprehensible terms why it did that.

[*Game sounds continue*] 

Jennifer: Most frequently, A-I performs the game… and over time, it basically works out the model to be triumphant. Random moves evolve into complex strategies… even some we didn’t know about. 

[Continue games sounds underneath the VO above and also into this piece of audio]

Will Douglas-Heaven: They threw the AIs at these outdated games and licensed confirmed them the monitors that they had no concept the model to play. It was once licensed pixels on a show conceal, stuff took residing. They tried issues and assuredly they blew up. Most frequently they shot the alien ships. And the spend of only form of rewards from after they did something, licensed, the bag went up, they slowly worked out the model to play the game. And they went from knowing, nothing to, in many circumstances, form of beating the excessive rankings of the top possible human gamers. And even some basically cool examples the put they in point of fact learned ways to beat the game that individuals hadn’t learned.

Jennifer: One instance of this comes from a game called Q*Bert, which places gamers on a pyramid of squares. 

Will Douglas-Heaven:  I imply the fashionable concept is you’ve got got obtained this exiguous man who jumps down the pyramid from the raze landing on the squares. And ought to you’ve got got changed the squares all to the identical colour, then you definately could perhaps additionally transfer on to the next stage. But the AI, I judge on the principle stage, changed the entire colors of the squares after which kept jumping up and down the squares somewhat than transferring on to the next stage. And it learned some malicious program within the game that allowed it to form of come by an endless bag in basically a transient length of time. And even the designers of the game had been fancy “ I possess never considered that malicious program  sooner than.” 

Jennifer: After the ruin… We’ll meet some pioneers late predominant breakthroughs  in this area. But first, I are searching to inform you about an tournament called CyberSecure in November. It’s Tech Overview’s cybersecurity convention and I would perchance be there with my colleagues. Chances are you’ll additionally learn more at Cyber Real M-I-T dot com.

We’ll be licensed support… after this.

[MIDROLL]

David Silver: My title’s David Silver. I work on man made intelligence and I prepare it to games. I work for a company called DeepMind and our purpose is to are attempting to spend, um, man made intelligence to are attempting to invent a tool, which has just among the smarts that are contained within the human mind.

Jennifer: DeepMind is at the heart of this work with games. It’s a research lab that’s portion of Google’s Alphabet.

David Silver: If the human mind can remedy every form of diverse projects, can we invent capabilities that could perhaps raze the identical thing? 

Jennifer: He’s the lead researcher late just among the top possible identified AI programs that  possess mastered the model to play games… starting with board games, (along side the feeble Chinese language approach game of Dash.) 

David Silver: We developed a tool called AlphaGo, which was once the principle program so as to play the game of Dash at the stage of high human expert gamers. And in fact, it was once ready to beat the area champion Lee Sedol. 

David Silver: And there is this extensive house of games, many of which possess these beautiful traits that enable us to for sure licensed dive in and realize, , one portion of the area in isolation without a have to manage with all the extensive complexity of the loyal world .

Jennifer: AlphaGo learned the model to play board games in accordance to how of us play.

Silver’s next draw, AlphaZero, learned to play board games and video games in a various capability… by learning the strategies of a game after which playing itself repeatedly.

David Silver: After AlphaGo, we tried to purchase the next step and invent something mighty more fashionable, which was once so as to play now not licensed one game, however many games the spend of the identical abilities. And this is a gargantuan stepping stone on legend of it basically is attempting to raze one of many issues which we, as of us are ready to raze, which is remedy many complications, the spend of the identical forms of machinery internal. 

Jennifer: It is a milestone in making AI more fashionable reason… But with a the biggest caveat. The algorithm can’t learn to play these games . It’s as though it builds itself separate brains for every game. So it has to swap out its chess mind sooner than playing Dash. 

It’s safe to allege researchers are aloof searching to come to a decision on out the model to invent games a test for loyal existence. Because games possess strategies that would perchance also be outlined… and no one basically knows the strategies in which the area works.

David Silver: The field is truly a messy residing. , it’s obtained this extremely prosperous dynamics going on, every form of well-known factors within the capability that objects transfer round. The capability that the issues we see inform to the issues that we touch. There’s licensed this amazing richness and complexity to the loyal world. And we can’t perchance hope to contend with that within the capability that folk historically possess approached games. So what we desire is something which is ready to attain the area for itself in a arrangement that form of understands the patterns in a arrangement which is precious for it to invent selections that are literally meaningful in serving to to raze its targets. 

Jennifer: His newest project is named MuZero. It excels at licensed as many games as AlphaZero… (as smartly as a entire host of video games). 

…however this approach figures out the model to play without being given any strategies the least bit.

David Silver: So it was once basically licensed let out. It was once ready to play games towards itself. And all it obtained at the tip of the game was once a stamp to allege, Good day, you won or Good day, you misplaced. And from that stamp, it was once ready to invent an knowing for itself of the strategies of the game sufficient that it can well perhaps in fact form of factor in what would occur into the future.. And once it had this ability to  factor in into the future, it was once ready to scamper searching and begin taking a investigate cross-test forward and begin pondering into the future and announcing, aha, now I realize how this world works. I will begin to factor in what would occur if I performed this transfer or took this movement. And so as that is truly a key step that we desire and something we predict about is terribly significant going forward for the model forward for A-I.

Jennifer: He says it’s now not unlike an exiguous one coming to grips with the area round it… constructing peril solving and inventive skills, over time. 

David Silver: I judge we’re already seeing examples the put, within constrained domains, that we see algorithms that are to all intents and capabilities, inventive. I imply, what is creativity in spite of all the pieces diverse than, , the ability to scrutinize some unique concept for itself. And I judge that is the essence of creativity. The essence of creativity is what our algorithms are doing, which is to scrutinize step by step something unique and to learn by their ride that this unique thought that they’ve approach up with is truly something which is grand and which helps it to raze its targets. So I judge one day, we are going to see an increasing form of creativity of this make. We are going to see, , machines that are ready to scrutinize for themselves strategies that abet them to raze targets. Now not on legend of a person’s instructed them, this is the object you possess to raze that purpose, however on legend of they figured it out for themselves.

Jennifer: And.. that creativity has led AlphaZero to scrutinize unique issues about the model to play chess. Now…. human gamers are literally adopting it of their occupy games … calling it.. “playing an alpha zero transfer”.

[SOT: how to play like AlphaZero]

Host: “Welcome to 1 other model of Easy strategies to Attack lLike AlphaZero! I’m hoping you are ready for at the contemporary time’s lesson….”

Jennifer: That’s also happening with e-sports… that are video game competitions that are on the entire performed in front of a are residing target audience… identical to a wearing tournament… With a world target audience of nearly half of a thousand million viewers tuning in to gaze their accepted games performed by just among the top possible avid gamers on this planet. 

Right here too, AI is being inclined in a bunch of how… fancy coaching instruments to abet of us come by greater at playing… and (one more time), researchers are also aiming to make spend of e-sports to invent their AI programs more luminous…  

David Farhi: We’re imagining that in some unspecified time in the future there would perchance be fashionable man made intelligence programs that could perhaps basically remedy complications snappy, can learn perchance at the stage of people. 

Jennifer: David Farhi is a lead researcher at Delivery AI… The research lab founded by Elon Musk and a bunch of diverse Silicon Valley luminaries.

It created the principle draw to beat world champions at an e-sports game. 

That game is named Defense of the Ancients 2, which every person calls Dota 2… and there’s a brand unique documentary about this take… called Synthetic Gamer.

[Clip from Artificial Gamer trailer]

[Dramatic music and sounds from Dota 2 gameplay] 

Speaker 1: Whereas you investigate cross-test at the game of Dota, there’s 10,000 plus variables in every 2d that your draw has to absorb.

Speaker 2: The AI learns in a in point of fact diverse capability than individuals. 

Speaker 3: It performs towards copies of itself. Many, repeatedly off within the cloud..

Jennifer: Fahri oversaw the Dota 2 project, called the Delivery A-I Five… and he demonstrated the arrangement it basically works at Tech Overview’s A-I convention, EmTech Digital… 

[Sounds of Dota 2 gameplay via youtube. [00:03 – 00:15] Depart in, then mattress below the next Farhi recall out. *Sword struggling with, footsteps, and dramatic fight song.*]

David Farhi: In the greater licensed corner of this show conceal. We see a in point of fact gargantuan, zoomed out, investigate cross-test of the entire world of Dota, In the decrease left corner there is one crew’s nefarious. In the greater licensed corner is one other crew’s nefarious. Every crew is attempting to transfer their characters round, solid spells with their characters, assault the enemies etc to sooner or later invade and execute the varied crew’s nefarious.

David Farhi: These more complicated programs fancy robotics and video games possess a various feel to them on legend of you come by an commentary of the notify of the game, after which you recall out an movement to purchase. And then the notify of the game changes in some capability, hoping on the movement you took. And then you definately’ve got got obtained a brand unique commentary and likewise you too can come by a brand unique movement and this loop happens repeatedly and over. And so it’s far necessary to invent selections that possess prolonged-length of time penalties down the avenue. So the capability we raze this within reason uncomplicated. Conceptually at the least. We possess agents that begin out playing fully randomly. And we licensed must play them towards themselves, a clone of themselves repeatedly and over.

Jennifer: And within the occasion you’re pondering this could perhaps purchase a in point of fact prolonged time with such an stepped forward game? You’re now not depraved… however Delivery AI’s ability to speed it on 200-thousand machines straight away… helps. 

Most frequently… it’s ready to attain about 250 years of ride per day.

And if the draw does something that works… it’s updated to raze that thing more… and if something unfriendly happens that doesn’t work, it does that thing less. 

David Farhi: We started out with a restricted model of the game. We had been sooner or later ready to beat our developer crew, which was once very fun. And then we added more pieces of the game. We went support and knowledgeable for longer. And we had been ready to beat some amateurs after which some semi-expert individuals. Now not at once we determined to scamper to a grand tournament that this game has..

[Sounds from The International 3 (Dota tournament) via youtube. *Crowd cheering, sports commentators shouting excitedly, Dota gameplay.*] 

Sportscaster: It could perchance perhaps be their closing stand. [inaudible]

Sportscaster: He’s gonna are attempting to focal point every person however there is so mighty stuff. 

Sportscaster: There could be now not any more clips available. All the model down to about half of HP. 

Sportscaster: A quarter HP. A lion surrounding from either aspect! EKB! Sportscaster: They won the round! They’re gonna raze it! 

Sportscaster: The kings of the north! Alliance wins! They take TI 3. 

Sportscaster: The Alliance licensed won 1.4 million bucks! 

Sportscaster: They are your International 3 champions! 

David Farhi: So this game has hundreds of hundreds of human users who compete in these  tournaments for grand prizes, which ensures that we all know there are individuals who are playing at a in point of fact, very excessive stage of ability. In August of 2018, we took our agent to this tournament. 

Jennifer: Their AI performed towards two expert teams that had already been eliminated from the tournament… and narrowly misplaced. But the next one year, with more coaching, the AI was once ready to beat the outdated world champions 2 – 0.

David Farhi: So OpenA-I Five is knowledgeable without a individuals within the coaching direction of, so it licensed performs towards itself in these cloud servers repeatedly and repeatedly. And then after we are searching to play it towards a human, we purchase a snapshot out of the cloud and play it towards the human, however we never feed that recordsdata support into the coaching direction of.

[Music] 

Jennifer:   But there’s aloof this question of whether or now not games can abet us prepare AI to be more precious. 

Correct now, we possess programs that are extraordinarily factual at one thing. But we don’t yet possess gadgets that could perhaps raze many of issues straight away. 

Once more, my colleague Will Douglas Heaven.

Will Douglas-Heaven: The trick goes to be, I judge stepping support from constructing AI’s that, excel at particular strategies or ways, or possess a ideal workaround for this particular rule or transfer, , the form of thing that we had been seeing in these AIs that could perhaps learn to play games. 

Jennifer: To for sure realize the next stage of this research… It could perchance perhaps be purposeful to be conscious of the capability children play on a playground. 

Will Douglas-Heaven: They aren’t playing a game that has any form of loyal space strategies. I imply, they could invent them up as they scamper along, however, , they’re licensed exploring, attempting stuff out and in a in point of fact form of pure and starting up-ended capability. And there is no sure purpose that they are training. And I judge it’s this form of approach, which is aloof a form of play, that we are going to investigate cross-test, , basically push issues forward after we discuss fashionable intelligence. Deepmind, for example, just a few months within the past released a digital playground. It be form of fancy a video game world called X Land. And it’s populated by a bunch of exiguous bots. And the orderly thing here is that X Land itself is controlled by an AI or form of fancy a games master that rearranges the atmosphere, rearranges the barriers and the blocks and the balls the exiguous bots come by to play with, and likewise comes up with diverse strategies on the wing. So, uncomplicated games fancy ticket or conceal and search, and the bots licensed must determine, , the model to play those. what objects in that digital world will abet them to raze it. And they learn fashionable skills fancy exploring, licensed attempting stuff out And I judge this form of starting up-ended exploration goes to be key for the next generation of AI. And it’s form of piquant that the [00:09:00] next wave of AI, the AIs that are going to be factual at just a few issues, [00:09:03] We // aloof could perhaps perhaps come by there by games again. So games aren’t going wherever. Games had been with AI on legend of the starting put. And , it’s good to investigate cross-test that play is aloof perchance the top possible strategy of learning. 

[CREDITS]

Jennifer: This episode was once reported by me and Will Douglas-Heaven… and produced by Anthony Inexperienced, Emma Cillekens and Karen Hao. We’re edited by Niall Firth, Michael Reilly and Mat Honan. Our mix engineer is Garret Lang… with sound come by and song by Jacob Gorski. 

Thanks for listening, I’m Jennifer Real. 

[TR ID]

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